XPastor recommends readers take special note of the resources provided by Watermark about the issue of Care and Correction. In my next post Ill share another story from another former-Watermark member. Even now, her parents (who worship there) refuse to talk to her or visit her children, simply because she was dutiful enough to report on the pedophile acts of a man who used to work at Prestonwood. Theres a lot of talk and a lot of Christianese language, but its still impossible to say exactly what happened or exactly what is and was going on. Those who love control and achievement thrive very well there. I have edited some of her answers for content and length. The Roys Report seeks to foster thoughtful and respectful dialogue. Does God want everyone to be broke? I went through the Re:Engage program twice early in its development. Watermark Community church says it relies on this New Testament passage to justify its policy of disciplining members: "If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. Our daughters went to the same grade school and were on the same soccer team. Our post-modern tendency is to use culture as a reference point, not the Bible. Smarmy Dictionary In my opinion, its best to have the teaching statement serve as the unifying statement that covers both members and elders, so that those who attend and who are working through their beliefs dont prematurely sign a membership covenant that in reality places them under the pastoral authority of elders who adhere to the teaching statement. What does all white and all males have to do absolutely anything with regard to this situation? While God does allow humans to have free will, His greatest gift to every human is salvation and eternal life, through believing that He sent His son as a sacrifice for our sins. Wagner has always surrounded himself with yes men. I went to a church with a broadly evangelical membership statement coupled with a specifically Calvinistic, and specifically young earth creationist, teaching statement. My challenge to Susan is to give citations for the quotes she gives. Gotcha. Spiritual authority is the result of Gods power shown through spiritual gifts and deep experiences with God. Scripture also says live your neighbor as yourself.folks many of you here have already missed that mark. May we bear one anothers confessions with grace and mercy. When this article was written, He could have thanked his friend for his generosity, and politely declined the gift, suggesting he would love for the proceeds from the resale of the house be donated to a local homeless charity instead. Hes not the pastor of Watermark. Those who love control and achievement thrive very well there = works. agreed. Remember how CJ wrote a book on humility and then some of the staff said he was anything but and instead was quite controlling. On 05/28/2008 THE STATE OF TEXAS filed a Property - Eminent Domain lawsuit against WATERMARK COMMUNITY CHURCH. This was the same concept as we moved on to adult Sunday school. Ministries. Help me to understand. Pastor Todd Wagner, abuse. Appreciate your response! 25 years ago, I found myself getting angry atRead more , I was a WM member until I realized that if you fail their morality assessment and they decide you have a pride issue, not a desperate, destitute, homeless or depression issue.. Take advantage of extra customization tools by signNow. Elder Mickey Friedrich then urged the church not to try and judge whose version of events is right or wrong. You can see it on their instagram! it simply looks very bad. It is the Lord Jesus who is in control after all folks. And thanks for the word smarmy. Ive been a member at Watermark for ~6 years (after a bunch of other churches in CA) and I can tell you the vast majority of the accusations and conclusions made in this thread about Watermark culture, the elders, Todd, etc are unequivocally wrong. Are you familiar with the website, No Eden Elseware? Watermark Video: Women's Channel 8y ago By our measure our savior Jesus was a total and complete failure. Our church has an elder-type rule that is healthy, but I know of churches that have had an elder-type rule that is not so healthy. Sort of as God told him and his wife that it was time to move on to the next thing God has planned. covenant, In the Bible, can you name Ashley Ruiz alleges in a lawsuit that a member of the International Churches of Christ sexually molested her when she was . Just because you have never been abused in the way these people have, does not negate that they were. You might want to check out this site Did You Know This Church Is Closely Aligned with 9 Marx (sic) Why do you throw a stone (more likely without looking at yourselves first). To donate, click here. The teaching statement wasnt explained to me in the membership process. The reengage curriculum and groups were excellent! like hes a programmed automaton. ingratiating and wheedling in a way In the online video, Leventhal described the process of discernment with Wagner as heart-breaking, exhausting, and expensive for Leventhal, his wife, the elder team, and the campus pastor team. Speculation, in this context, equates to gossip, and at its heart, is pride. In the video, Wagner said that the clarity to step down was not hasty, adding that the discernment process had started a year ago. Grace Community Church will be paid $800,000 by Los Angeles County and the state of California after reaching a legal settlement to a lawsuit over COVID-19 restrictions in churches. This drum beat often is driven by pride, immature leaders thats been placed to seven themselves. that is perceived as insincere or excessive: To the unsuspecting eye, everything contained in this document may seem legitimate or customary as far as church membership goes. Wagner founded Watermark in 1999 with the expressed purpose of ministering to "the unchurched, dechurched, dead-churched and unmoved." The church grew rapidly and now has campuses in Dallas, Frisco, and Plano. Wagner is all about control and he lost it. He is a restorer and a life giver, even as we ALL come to him seeking forgiveness. Log In. Why wouldnt they just tell the church what happened? 5,280 were here. Once youve signed your life over to them, you must either form your own community group or go through the process of being placed in one. He hides behind the church to bully people whether in the church or outside. Community groups are the epicenter of Watermark Church. Wagner blatantly blasphemed Holy Scripture, hence your whitewash of content and material issues. According to a report by National Public Radio, the Catholic Church has paid more than $3 billion in child sexual abuse lawsuit settlements in America alone. Todd Wagner, the embattled pastor of Watermark Church, a Dallas multisite megachurch with a pre-pandemic congregation of 20,000 people, has resigned his position as senior pastor and elder. Usually blood in the water attracts sharks, but nothing that fierce here, just a bunch of blood sucking remoras. I take at face value Susan has hurt and I feel compassion for her. Cant even begin to address this without feeling a sense of disappointment. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account. And in Ecclesiastes 12:14, For God will bring every deedRead more , I would be curious to know if you are ok with disclosing all of your financial information to your community group and seeking their approval on life decisions? How many times have you actually talked to Todd? To become a member, there are certain things with which a person has to be in agreement, of course; but if a person becomes an elder, then what is expected is more clearly defined. It is mentioned in this article. He first goes into the definition of the word cult which in latin is the word cultus, defined as to inhabit, dwell; to cultivate. Once you see it, you cant unsee it. Theyre not only going to write you off but theyll make sure your entire community group does too.Read more , [] of absence in September 2020 to work on prideful sin that was increasingly becoming visible to church members. Are Calvinism and YEC accurately described as higher? Its all a show for people to be conned into thinking your being godly. The Yelp algorithm is strange. Under the veil of confession, it was all about him. I assured those who wanted to speak out with their stories that I would not identify them or use any details in my post that could be used to identify them. What do you mean exactly by re-victimization. Better to have one doctrinal statement that unites both members and elders in my opinion. The level of absurdity is a bit high here Im a member, not once have I been asked to fork out my money, not once have I been forced to makeRead more . He counseled my former fiance and after several meetings with him my fiance broke up the engagement and I was left devastated. Below are screenshots of their membership covenant. As for the doctrinal statement issue, I see what you are saying. And this is important. But not everyone wants that, and for those people there are lots of other churches that offer community groups, small groups, life groups, etc. The elders at Watermark, along with Wagner and Leventhal, announced the resignations at services yesterday. Some of the most notable settlements are described below. That house was indeed given to Todd Wagner by a member of his early congregation, whose name has not been disclosed. Im also a bit a sad with respond of David (elder) who is in the leadership role to show the love with staring at the congregation (may be because of challenges). . As per usual, all white and all males. Give a gift of $30 or more to The Roys Report this month, and you will receive Escaping the Maze of Spiritual Abuse by Dr. Lisa Oakley and Justin Humphreys. Fellowship Church. University Park has the advantage though of a much lower tax rate for obvious reasons. But, we ALL should be. His Grace is given to everyone, lets say even if He wasnt saved (lets say if he was one) have you prayed for him? its raw observation on your part you arent being led at all. Its all sunshine and roses till you see it firsthand. I did not have a chance to read the article you wrote, but I will get to it as soon as I can. That is only for the married folk. +++++++++++++++++. Wagner is a bully. Psychological warfare Is a good name for it. The state of California and Los Angeles have agreed to pay $800,000 in legal fees to settle their lawsuit with John MacArthur's church over COVID-19 lockdown rules. Sounds like the perfect target for attack, I was looking at Watermarks governance section on its website and two things stuck out to me: 1) they have 2 doctrinal statements, one for members and one for elders and 2) they are Elder-Rule, Elder-Led. When I watched his stepping back/pride/ sin talk, I wanted to either vomit or laugh out loud.. Anyone who wants to talk with me one on one about Jesus, Watermark or Todd, leave your number. Todd was my counselor at Kanakuk Camps for a summer. The lessons were unifying and not surfacy. In January, Wagner returned from leave to preach his first sermon and received a standing ovation from the congregation. If you call Christ a savior then learn to make Him There are 2 Todd Wagners in Dallas. It looks as if an elder finally stood up and refused to be silenced. Darren, heres what I see are the problems with Elder-Rule church government. Re|Engage at other churches may be worthwhile. search clear. There are people who are genuinely afraid to withdraw their membership for fear of being put under church discipline, pressure from the community group to conform, and outright harassment. You may be thinking of a different Todd Wagner, who is a longtime partner of Mark Cuban. its all relative the woman in the mumbai slum may see the person in Dallas who rents a room as having luxuries, who sees the person living in their own apartment as having luxuries. Im confused about your statement that the crowd Jesus drew wanted to see him tortured to death in the most cruel way possible. i dont believe a word he says. I have nothing to hide, and sharingRead more , As an ex-Watermark member (8 years), and former CG leader (6 years), I can say unequivocally that I had no problem sharing my financial information with my guys. Regardless Lords will be done Prov 16:9 The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps. Case Summary. Maybe because I have not had a negative experience with elder rule I do not see it as a problem. Watermark Church does not believe that single ladies & gentlemen should be in coed community groups. Another requirement for membership is that you find an area in which to serve in the church. The Equipping Podcast 10M ago Sharpen your thinking on issues that matter. Did he stay and open his churches to the people that were cold and hungry? At the beginning of each year our membership goes to zero. Genuine question, The house was given to him from a member of the church years ago. These resources are found in Appendix V and Appendix VI at the end of this case study and in the clarifications given by Watermark in the section Watermark's Response to the Nation. Im confident Todd wagner has done more to help people than all commenters combined. Most people in the U.S. have a lavish lifestyle compared to most believers around the world. Not to gotcha, but I just want to set the record straight that the gift tax doesnt make it unrealistic that Todds family was gifted that house. He can be only the center ofRead more . For ye were as *sheep going astray;* I wonder what is considered a humble enough lifestyle to please all the rest of us looking in and offering our opinion about something we probably do not know enough about It is a long process to leave unless you just dont fill out the yearly form. Life Stage Care and Recovery Equipping Outreach Serve Community Groups. Came off as legalistic trolling. Its gotten popular which makes me suspect. Came off as legalistic trolling. Even through this challenges we can be so judgements these day. If not? . My daughter occasionally attends their weekly singles service, The Porch, which she enjoys. There is a filthy rich entrepreneur whose name is Todd Wagner. Or evasion? We have ministry partners with boots on the ground, helping to love and serve others by meeting their immediate physical and spiritual needs. Its how relationships are formed and accountability is established or thats what they want you to think. Evangelical Church. Sure, we made friends with our peers in the class and had fun at summer camp, and it all developed out of normal human interaction. the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls. Watermark is very good at many things but also very bad at a few. Not now. Most people in the U.S. have a lavish lifestyle compared to most believers around the world. Im Jesus name. have caused them to *go astray,*. If youre short on time, start at 27 minutes when the speakers starts explaining why people think Watermark is a cult. And then they agree to work on the same board? A pastor or elder does not automatically have spiritual authority due to his position in a church. they portrayed it as Todd having the support of the elders and full steam ahead. Ive spoken to these people and I believe them. Could just be their abilities to appear a certain way up in front of a crowd. The only fees were for the materials we used. I was so disappointed reading all the comments, especially when considering the targeted audience for this site. If the answer or NONE then you need to look at your own lives and see if correction is needed. A major focus of the Community Groups at Watermark and many other churches is to foster the development of deep connection with a small group of fellow believers that enables true Christian accountability. Why wouldnt the devil try to tempt and discredit a Christian leader whos been respected by so many and positively influenced so many? I think I have a pdf copy of a ten year old one. Why is it that Im led to believe (Based on reports and personal experience) that one has to possess certain sociopathic traits in order to be a successful megachurch pastor? But it still feels like something is off. As a result, at least 19 diocese and religious orders have had to file for bankruptcy. Im saying that outta love and also saying it truly saddens me to see many of you have hardened your hearts. I have no comment on the Cabo thing; but I will say, the church was opened to anyone and anyone during the snowstorm, event the kids playhouse for children to play. Also I probably would be off my depression meds. I dont doubt some unconcionable things happened. Hes definitely not perfect, but he is a good and Godly man who preached the gospel boldly and consistently. When this article was written, And why? I know I often do. Susan says she is now happy to be away from Watermark Church and is healing. She has never seriously considered getting involved with the church beyond that, but has expressed to me that it is quite difficult to actually get connected at Watermark Church because everything is centered around MEMBERSHIP and COMMUNITY GROUPS and you cant have one without the other. He has people who fund his life so no donations are used for that purpose and so he can fully focus on running the mission.. do you have knowledges that Todd is spending money frivolously? He is waiting on us and saying Go but lost ones are here judging because of some issue no matter how big it is (Lord has it) Watermark Comunity Church., I would say on average I receive a few emails a month from people who have been hurt by Watermark Community Church. The Dallas ISD board of trustees approved the sale in late August; records show Watermark paid $211,000 for nine acres of building and bare land off Second Avenue a steal, no matter the. Im sorry Todd but Im praying for you and your family through this rough times. We did one a week, so this stretch over several weeks. The Watermark spokesperson explained that the church followed the Dallas Independent School District's "standard and customary process for this . Read More. Its extremely worrisome that they feel they have to hide and be afraid of what Watermark Church may say or do in response to them telling the truth about their abuse. Also resigned is David Leventhal, an elder and teaching pastor at Watermark, who said he had lost trust in Wagners leadership. He added that he and Wagner are good and there is no anger, malice, or slander between them. Once your account is created, you'll be logged-in to this account. When he stepped into an executive pastor role a few years back he didnt like that his replacement (JP) was more poly than he was so he didnt allow him to pastor/lead. So in summary, Watermark isnt a cult because they follow Jesus better than anyone, are more radical about it than anyone else, and if thats what a cult is, oh well, I guess were a Jesus cult! He walked with an air of superiority that was disgusting. They have brought a civil lawsuit against the Church of Scientology for stalking and intimidation that occurred after they reported their assaults to the police. but unfortunately christian powerbrokers have made christianity about things other than Jesus Christ. He publicly criticized other local church leaders and called them out in the media and then doesnt really share his issues. What Happens Now? And so have I. It is kindness that brings people to repentance. In the end, I do think it is a matter of opinion, but I think churches should lean toward transparency. MacArthur's Grace Community Church of Sun Valley had been involved in months of legal battles with state and local officials . Mickey makes it sound like the decision for Todd to resign was something weve arrived at due to events. There is so much judgement on here it has to hurt the heart of God. Also resigned is David Leventhal, an elder and teaching pastor at Watermark, who said he had lost trust in Wagner's leadership. -, Watermark Community Church has believers SIGN It appears to attract a fairly high income crowd if their building program is any indication of the amount of money coming into the church. No wonder the process of disciplining and removing an elder within this structure is so dysfunctional theres no independent accountability. Many churches won't consider an openly gay man or woman for the clergy. Did he stay to minister to anyone in need? Im sorry to hear of judgement that has been passed around. Todd portrays it all as a divine God told me sort of thing. It was meant to jerk everyones chain. If the things she claims were stated from the pulpit are true, there should be plenty of documentation. It is Lord that gives and takes it away. If I thought I couldnt work with someone I wouldnt be turning around and working with them. We know a number of people who attend Watermark due to our 10 year stay in dallas. In response to a tweet by a critic questioning Wagners seeming humility when he announced he was taking a leave of absence in September, Wagner tweeted: Mission accomplished. Wagner later deleted that tweet. Having community is not the issue its how Watermark DEFINES community. For much of Wagners speech in the video, Leventhal did not look at Wagner, but stared straight ahead. on The Aftermath: Stories from Former Watermark Church Members, Youth Volunteer at The Village Church Confesses to Sexual Abuse of Minors. Perfectly said Scottie. Thats the other dallas todd wagner who is mark cubans partner. Watermark Church is a popular, non-denominational church in the Dallas area which has about 11,000 members. https://www.watermark.org/about/governance. +++++++++++++++. The reason for this is because, as an elder, he will be responsible for teaching others. obey your leaders? Its a huge red flag to me about Todds character and understanding of God. Worth 1-2 million. In our case, it is because those in leadership are held to a higher standard; more is expected of them in terms of their beliefs and practice. the artificial contrived way of being is over the top. 4774 sq ft house. Todd Wagner was preaching. Visit us at 9:30 or 11:00 am CST on Sunday . that is, if we keep Jesus Christ as part of the equation, with an understanding that more is incumbent on leaders than on others. the family in a 1970s 2,100 sf home of their own in the suburbs may feel they have the short end of the stick, and see the family in the newer 3,400 sf home as having amazing luxuries. Is this standard really higher or is it just more specific? I am a former Watermark member. Problem with a church goers these days is (they are simply judgmental- half the time without any knowledge or discernment. Different guys. I really enjoyed the music and people. So, if they can sell their copyrighted material, that is just the same as authors getting paid for their writing or bible study writers selling their studies in bookstores. It is very helpful and lets us plan financially well. To donate, Pastor of Dallas Megachurch Dogged by Allegations of Spiritual Abuse Announces Hes Taking a Break, https://www.wadeburleson.org/2015/05/five-reasons-to-say-no-to-church.html, Vineyard Pastor Resigns, Wont Cooperate With Probe Into Sons Alleged Misconduct. Your tax-deductible gift helps our journalists report the truth and hold Christian leaders and organizations accountable. It also lists Fellowship Church and Village Church in its top 10 on cults (Village likely is, Fellowship is more of a personality cult centered around Ed), strangely Gateway Church isnt listed (and several people think it may be more of a personality cult than Watermark or Village). At least that was my experienceRead more , The house referenced in the post belongs to the correct Todd Wagner. Why all the allusion? Embattled Dallas megachurch Senior Pastor Todd Wagner has resigned from his position after accusations of spiritual abuse led elders to question his leadership of Watermark Community Church. It sounds like people from the church may have gotten some things wrong, but I know so many people that haveRead more , Pdiddy The taxes ALONE on the house Todd lives in are over $30K a year, which is probably the salary of some WM staff members. If your Parents were not rich and someone. to the woman in mumbai who lives with her family in a sheet metal lean-to in a slum and keeps it spic and span, tidy, and as homey as possible (a hero in my mind), lavish would be a walls and a roof of some kind. This is maybe a time for correction for Todd as it seems (2 Tim 3:16-17) havent you ever done anything wrong? Give a gift of $30 or more to The Roys Report this month, and you will receive Escaping the Maze of Spiritual Abuse by Dr. Lisa Oakley and Justin Humphreys. Products. Keep in touch with Julie and get updates in your inbox! .. .amazing. Amazing indeed! Watermark Community Church abuse. Take Your Power Back we all know many invested their heart and lives into this place, only to be punished and abused when their performance was not up to the public image WM wanted society to perceive of their organization. Understanding of God goers these days is ( they are simply judgmental- the... Mickey Friedrich then urged the church years ago having community is not the issue of Care and correction Watermark. Have had to file for bankruptcy start at 27 minutes when the starts... To read the article you wrote, but he is a filthy rich entrepreneur name! Once you see it as soon as I can someone I wouldnt be turning around and with! To Todd Wagner by a member of his early congregation, whose name Todd! 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